Battleships with 0 on edge rows

Battleships with 0 on edge rows

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

All Forums >> [Magazine and Puzzle Chat] >> The Magazine >> Battleships with 0 on edge rows

Page: [1]

Message

Battleships with 0 on edge rows - 8/12/2006 4:51:38 PM

Posts: 32
Joined: 18/9/2006
Status: offline

Is it me, or is there no point having a battleships grid with an edge row or column having a 0 (as is the case for the one in the Christmas Issue)? Surely it adds nothing to the puzzle over having the grid one row/column smaller - except for the additional shading time required.

Or am I missing something?

David.

Post #: 1

RE: Battleships with 0 on edge rows - 8/12/2006 5:32:25 PM

Posts: 37
Joined: 15/8/2006
Status: offline

Without these rows you probably wouldn't be able to solve the puzzle as they give you clues as to where ships can fit.

_____________________________

Sometimes the most logical path is the completely illogical one

(in reply to DavidNorman99)

Post #: 2

RE: Battleships with 0 on edge rows - 11/12/2006 12:54:13 PM

Posts: 336
Joined: 19/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavidNorman99

Is it me, or is there no point having a battleships grid with an edge row or column having a 0 (as is the case for the one in the Christmas Issue)? Surely it adds nothing to the puzzle over having the grid one row/column smaller - except for the additional shading time required.

Or am I missing something?

David.

you are indeed, in most logic puzzles a 'no' answer is just (and sometimes more) as helpful as a 'yes'

(in reply to DavidNorman99)

Post #: 3

RE: Battleships with 0 on edge rows - 13/12/2006 12:42:26 PM

Posts: 32
Joined: 18/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fretty

Without these rows you probably wouldn't be able to solve the puzzle as they give you clues as to where ships can fit.

I disagree. I don't see how having an edge row with a 0 in is any different to not having that row at all.

Note that I am only talking about edge rows. So in the puzzle in issue 7 (48a), it has the following rows:

7
1
6
1
2
1
1
0 <-- This row is completely necessary
3
0 <-- This is the row I'm talking about

0 rows in the middle of the grid have a huge effect on the puzzle. But 0 rows at the edge - i.e. the bottom row in the above example - don't appear to have any effect on the puzzle, other than to give you some extra shading to do.

David.

(in reply to fretty)

Post #: 4

RE: Battleships with 0 on edge rows - 13/12/2006 2:17:42 PM

Posts: 37
Joined: 15/8/2006
Status: offline

I think missing them all out would confuse some people as in some other puzzles, a row/column with no number doesn't necessarily mean a 0. It's just alot easier to put it in

_____________________________

Sometimes the most logical path is the completely illogical one

(in reply to DavidNorman99)

Post #: 5

RE: Battleships with 0 on edge rows - 13/12/2006 4:56:04 PM

Posts: 312
Joined: 18/7/2006
From: Coventry, UK
Status: offline

I think David's point is why bother with that row/column at all?

_____________________________

Try www.mysterynet.com for games, puzzles and general good fun!

(in reply to fretty)

Post #: 6

RE: Battleships with 0 on edge rows - 14/12/2006 9:42:27 AM

Posts: 133
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Amersham
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavidNorman99

Is it me, or is there no point having a battleships grid with an edge row or column having a 0 (as is the case for the one in the Christmas Issue)?

It's a yes and no answer I think.

If you can solve the battleships grid in the christmas issue without needing to refer to the 0 edges then yes, you are right, there is no point in having them there.

A bigger question, which I think is the one you are asking, is whether there is ever a need for 0 rows or columns around the edges of a battleships puzzle?

How about using a different example; a 2x2 grid and a battleship of size 1. An example of this puzzle would be:

0 1
. . 0
. . 1

(where the battleship is hidden in the bottom right square)

Not very challenging I agree but removing the 0 rows and columns would leave you with this:

1
. 1

Which is even easier

I would argue that in this example the 0 rows/columns are important (in order to produce a non-trivial puzzle) but in some cases (like the xmas issue) they can be removed.

_____________________________

Go http://www.vexuspuzzle.com for more information on Navigrids

(in reply to DavidNorman99)

Post #: 7

RE: Battleships with 0 on edge rows - 14/12/2006 1:48:30 PM

Posts: 32
Joined: 18/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: StephenBuxton

I think David's point is why bother with that row/column at all?

Exactly. I am saying that you remove the number and the row, and make the grid one row smaller.

(in reply to StephenBuxton)

Post #: 8

RE: Battleships with 0 on edge rows - 14/12/2006 2:00:03 PM

Posts: 32
Joined: 18/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vexus2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavidNorman99

Is it me, or is there no point having a battleships grid with an edge row or column having a 0 (as is the case for the one in the Christmas Issue)?

It's a yes and no answer I think.

If you can solve the battleships grid in the christmas issue without needing to refer to the 0 edges then yes, you are right, there is no point in having them there.

A bigger question, which I think is the one you are asking, is whether there is ever a need for 0 rows or columns around the edges of a battleships puzzle?

Exactly. I believe it is never necessary to have an edge row with a 0 included. I believe that removing such a row would always have no effect on the overall puzzle.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vexus2006

How about using a different example; a 2x2 grid and a battleship of size 1. An example of this puzzle would be:

0 1
. . 0
. . 1

(where the battleship is hidden in the bottom right square)

Not very challenging I agree but removing the 0 rows and columns would leave you with this:

1
. 1

Which is even easier

I would argue that in this example the 0 rows/columns are important (in order to produce a non-trivial puzzle) but in some cases (like the xmas issue) they can be removed.

I disagree that the former is not trivial - or indeed that it is any harder... You shade the 0 rows and columns, and you have the same puzzle as the latter example.

I guess what I am saying is that the difficulty of a puzzle relates to the number of decisions you have to make, not the amount of effort. To take your example a step further, I don't think the following puzzle is any harder than either of yours:

0 0 0 1 0
. . . . . 0
. . . . . 0
. . . . . 1
. . . . . 0
. . . . . 0

You still just shade in all the 0 rows and columns, and have one square left which must be the ship. It's more effort, but no more difficult.

To me, it seems obvious that a 0 row or column never has any effect on the difficulty of the puzzle - removing them will never change the solution, or the method needed to solve the puzzle in any way, except that you have to start by shading the 0 edge row/column before progressing with the rest of the puzzle.

David.

(in reply to Vexus2006)

Post #: 9

RE: Battleships with 0 on edge rows - 14/12/2006 2:06:09 PM

Posts: 39
Joined: 12/10/2006
Status: offline

Personally I didn't think it mattered either way. So there was a 0 row on the edge. Who cares? It's not like the Mind games team killed anyone.

_____________________________

They're going to taste greeeeat!

(in reply to DavidNorman99)

Post #: 10

RE: Battleships with 0 on edge rows - 14/12/2006 2:08:08 PM

Posts: 336
Joined: 19/9/2006
Status: offline

and how do you know that?

(in reply to Frosties_Boy)

Post #: 11

RE: Battleships with 0 on edge rows - 14/12/2006 4:29:53 PM

Posts: 133
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Amersham
Status: offline

David, I agree with you.

Out of interest, you say that the 0 row in the middle of the xmas puzzle is "completely necessary" - is this true? Have you tried removing the row and solving the puzzle? I haven't attempted it yet but I am interested in whether there is a case for removing all 0 rows/columns.

Frosties_Boy it's a forum about puzzles, we should all care

_____________________________

Go http://www.vexuspuzzle.com for more information on Navigrids

(in reply to acne)

Post #: 12

RE: Battleships with 0 on edge rows - 14/12/2006 7:47:01 PM

Posts: 46
Joined: 21/11/2006
Status: offline

Calm down dear, it's only a puzzle!

Care seems a emotive word to use. I enjoy puzzles, I pass my time puzzles but I care about my boyfriend, I care about my cats, I care about those poor women who are being murdered.

Puzzles aren't there to be cared about. They're there to be a distraction.

I did the battleship puzzle. It was fun and yes, there was a 0 on the edge. But that didn't concern me in the slightest as it was just a part of the puzzle. Then I moved on. Perhaps we should to.

Ali
x

(in reply to Vexus2006)

Post #: 13

RE: Battleships with 0 on edge rows - 19/12/2006 5:29:51 PM

Posts: 28
Joined: 16/10/2006
Status: offline

The 0 rows in the middle of the puzzle are nearly always essential because two ships cannot touch. The ones at the edge don't have to be there but having them does mean that there can be a greater variety of ship placement with the puzzle staying the same dimensions each month. Printing it as (say) 10x9 one month would merely save you a couple of seconds of putting 'x's in the empty squares. (I put 'x's in water and shade in the ship squares when solving them - much faster!)

Gareth

(in reply to Vexus2006)

Post #: 14

RE: Battleships with 0 on edge rows - 19/12/2006 6:06:51 PM

Posts: 46
Joined: 21/11/2006
Status: offline

i agree. It doesn't hinder the puzzle at all and doesn't make it less enjoyable

Ali
x

(in reply to gareth)

Post #: 15

RE: Battleships with 0 on edge rows - 20/12/2006 2:17:19 PM

Posts: 336
Joined: 19/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vexus2006

David, I agree with you.

Out of interest, you say that the 0 row in the middle of the xmas puzzle is "completely necessary" - is this true? Have you tried removing the row and solving the puzzle? I haven't attempted it yet but I am interested in whether there is a case for removing all 0 rows/columns.

Frosties_Boy it's a forum about puzzles, we should all care

due to the fact that if you read the rules the battle ships cannot touch - yes there is a reason for blank rows - although it should be possible to have puzzle without them, it would dramatically lower the no. of puzzles that can be produced.

(in reply to Vexus2006)

Post #: 16

Page: [1]

All Forums >> [Magazine and Puzzle Chat] >> The Magazine >> Battleships with 0 on edge rows

Page: [1]

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts

0.063